what men with intimact issues do to women
The Men's Resources Center of West Michigan works primarily with men and boys, helping them navigate the bug that affect their lives, including their emotional well-being. Many men are reticent to talk about their feelings; especially thoughts effectually intimacy. Often, they are socialized to see sex as the only ways for intimacy. This can adversely affect their ability to develop and maintain salubrious, intimate relationships. In this Revealing Men podcast Randy Flood, psychotherapist and director of the Men's Resources Heart, engages Laura Bennett, his practiced friend and swain psychotherapist, in a conversation about men's challenges with intimacy and sexuality. Their commutation examines how men and women tin view intimacy differently, the lingering stereotypes that limit men and women, and the life-changing benefits of having the backbone to open up oneself to intimacy. Read their conversation below (edited for length and clarity) or listen to information technology anytime on popular podcast platforms including Spotify and Stitcher.
A Homo and A Woman Talk Nearly Intimacy
Flood: Laura is a colleague, and a friend, who has been in private practice with a grouping of similar eight colleagues for twenty years. She left the field of sales and marketing and freelance writing in midlife—a piffling midlife crisis there, Laura? —to pursue a degree in counseling at Western Michigan University, the place I went to as well. Laura was married for 23 years and now divorced for ten with iii grown children, a daughter-in-police, and lots of doggies running effectually. You don't have all the dogs, but your kids…
Bennett: No, we all have dogs. It's bring your own kennel at my house.
Flood: Laura and I share a love of music and the arts. She and I, along with a local artist, had a successful mental health project entry in the nationally recognized ArtPrize contest here in the fair city of Thousand Rapids, Michigan. Laura is an incredible vocalist and sings in several local bands and groups. We've gigged a little with each other as I'chiliad a percussionist. I've played on trash cans a little bit when I didn't bring my drums!
So, thank you Laura for agreeing to come and talk about men and intimacy.
The Changing Dynamics Around Intimacy
Bennett: Admittedly! As you said in the intro, I've been practicing for nearly 20 years. Young adults are my major focus, though I estimate the age span would be anywhere from 18 to 80 technically. Women and men, merely I've adult I estimate just a niche, an involvement in young adults. I have three immature adults of my own. Then, that'southward possibly just close to my heart, I gauge. But I notice that grouping very interesting in their challenges and of class navigating relationships, [Alluvion: "Right. It'due south office of that."] and beingness young, just less time on the planet.
They accept less experience and the world is challenging and changing quickly. It'due south been interesting to me to see how many of their bug overlap and congregate effectually sure topics. Intimacy and relating to 1 another, specially in the social media world, in a very virtual, digital-heavy globe, that has affected things, I think, significantly. It's interesting to sit with people in person, peculiarly now that we're more in person, to start to untangle these things.
Flood: One of the things that we hear oftentimes is that men are not socialized or prepared to practice intimacy well, and ya know, women are socialized in a unlike way. I'thou wondering what kinds of frustrations sometimes y'all hear from clients, from girlfriends, or from your own life well-nigh some of the struggles that men might bring to the tabular array and into relationships with intimacy.
Bennett: Some of that, I believe—from the small microcosm that is my caseload— is changing for the amend in many ways, because I think that equally gender roles change, and the expect of a family is changing completely, people are broadening their definition of all sorts of things, intimacy included. So, I exercise call back it's irresolute for the better. That said, [Laughs] we notwithstanding exercise have some long-standing patterns, I think.
I still come across an atrocious lot of stigma around many things, once more gender roles, and around mental health, request for assist. And and then that stretches back to just relating to one another. I retrieve that still, I would say men more than than women, accept— obviously generalizing here—more of a struggle to accomplish out and inquire for help. You know the old joke about not request for directions when you're lost kind of thing. [Flood: "Right."] That's quite a metaphor for life, I think. I do still run across that. And of course, that can frustrate partners.
The Language of Intimacy
Bennett: I had an online session this morning, just with a young couple, a very young couple, they've been married four years and I recall they're 22, 23? With a 2-year-quondam child.
But he looked correct at the screen and very directly-faced said, "I don't exercise emotion. I don't feel emotions," and so he sort of laughed. And I said, "I simply saw an emotion!" [Inundation: "In that location's an emotion right there!"] And she said, "It'south true. I have to follow him around and ask him 'what are you feeling'." And I said "well, okay. You have emotions because you're homo." So maybe there'south not language. And then as we delved into that, he was able to say okay I accept them, I don't empathize them, I'g at my limit, I don't have room for emotions, I don't have the bandwidth if I'm gonna keep working this many hours, parenting and all that. And then, some of it I think is a protective stance that people take, particularly men.
Alluvion: And I recollect that but even trying to define, what is intimacy? What is this little affair, this crazy footling thing called love? [Flood: Starts humming.] It's crazy because it's unique, it's different, there'south naught like trying to do love, trying to exercise connection, trying to do intimacy. And so, I always tell the guys I work with that intimacy is: Into Me You See. [Bennett: "I like that."]
So, this person, this couple that you saw, my approximate is that she is maxim "I want to see you," "I desire to know you lot." [Bennett: "Exactly."] He's like "I got cipher." Or "it'due south not in me." It is. Merely I call up that we're socialized oft to put your cards close to your chest because to exist intimate is to be vulnerable, and to be vulnerable leads to the possibility of someone having power over you, someone who can injure you, [Bennett: "Expose y'all."] someone who can reject you, and there's a lot of fearfulness around that for some men.
Bennett: Right. But if the person doesn't have the linguistic communication, … I'chiliad a big fan of languages as a bridge to yourself and to others. This aforementioned couple, this same conversation, … i of their struggles is around, he said it'southward around intimacy, and I wondered if I knew what he meant by that. And it turns out that I did know what he meant by that. Only, every bit we drilled backward from that comment about non having fourth dimension, infinite, whatever for sexuality, was really around emotional connexion and intimacy, and he didn't seem to exist really enlightened of how that was affecting, and I'thousand not trying to place any blame on one person or the other, these are just dynamics that accept shaped upwardly over the years, it was interesting to watch them develop more than of an agreement of themselves as a couple even in just one session.
No, Intimacy and Sexuality Aren't the Aforementioned Matter
Inundation: When I ask a guy to have an cess I say, "tell me about the intimacy in your human relationship," and they'll say, "oh, we have sex almost 2-3 times a week or once a month and I'm terribly frustrated." And I think guys sometimes equate intimacy with sexuality and I recollect unfortunately our civilisation socializes guys to merely have that equally a vehicle for intimacy. Is that if they're going to experience deep, deep connectedness, the only way I have available for me to experience that is through sex. [Bennett: "Exactly."] And, I think, I don't know if you hear frustrations from women proverb they want to have this deeper emotional connexion so that I'm more interested in sexual practice.
Bennett: Well, that's exactly what I hear routinely, is this flipped chicken or the egg kind of a thing. Where men will say, ya know, the vehicle to intimacy for me is sexuality. When we have sex, I feel more [Flood: "Warmth, and shut, and continued."] close to you and I feel more intimate in other ways, and I'm more likely to desire to cuddle and lookout man a movie with you, kind of thing. Where women are like the opposite. And again, generalizing, this is not every couple, just often women volition say merely the sexual expression is an expression of an emotional intimacy that has been there for me before we e'er go to the bedroom, or the couch, or wherever. [Both: Laugh] [Flood: "Or the kitchen."]
Flood: I encourage guys to run across ultimately yes, sex is beautiful merely can you see sexual activity as a commemoration of intimacy achieved, rather than it being the vehicle to achieve intimacy. [Bennett: "Exactly."] And so, that helps them begin to say, "well tell me most what other forms of intimacy is out there?" And then, that's when we beginning talking about emotional intelligence and nosotros start talking about sharing feelings, and that's where it's like "oh, my gosh!" That sounds weird or that sounds scary, or that sounds feminine.
Men Share What They Do Meliorate Than How They Feel
Bennett: Well, that was my question for you. Is that what yous think happens? That doesn't experience, what? Manly? Or that'southward besides soft a skill for me? I need to accept accuse. What practice you lot think that'south about?
Flood: I think for some guys that are socialized more traditionally, and again, nosotros are speaking in some generalizations here, simply they await at talking about feelings as "I'm going to be showing yous my weakness and why would I want to practise that?" Every bit a guy, they want to impress you and they desire to show y'all their heroic side, their fearless side, their accomplishments, the things that they fixed and tackled, and been credentialed on. And and then, to them, it's similar you lot're going to become to know me, but I'm going to talk to you virtually those things, and that's how you're going to get to know me, and then y'all're going to be so impressed with me, then you're going to want to have sex with me. [Both: Laugh]
Bennett: "And and so I will eventually let my baby-sit down?" Is that how that goes?
Overflowing: Yeah. I think when I talk to guys virtually that level of vulnerability tin create a deeper connectedness, and in that location's risk involved. Brené Brown talks about courage and vulnerability and letting people see you. And then, I effort to help them reframe it as an act of courage to be open and vulnerable and share feelings; but it'due south nonetheless a pretty hard sell for some guys.
Experiencing Male-to-Male Intimacy
Bennett: Yeah. I tin can meet that. And I probably do the same affair with slightly different diction in my role. I recall that many of the women that I know who are thinking almost age a little fleck; older women or women who wouldn't be considered young adults I guess, mid-life and on. Many are out in the dating world or they're in committed relationships. But they are with someone from a generation who were raised in a much more traditional setting. Younger people are being raised with more open up-mindedness, I recall these days, around the roles. What'southward your suggestion for women who are dating or married to these older guys who are sort of stuck in those stigma places?
Alluvion: I would imagine it's frustrating and solitary for women. And if you endeavour to push a man into information technology and you try to mentor him and educate him on emotional intimacy, and so you're at risk of them hearing you or sensing you as their mother. And so, you got this delicate trip the light fantastic toe, right? It's hard to become men to go into therapy. But I think doing it with yous [their spouse or partner] could exist besides threatening and besides hard.
That's ane of the reasons why we practise [men's] groups considering doing intimacy with men when sexuality is not necessarily on the table, it gives them a dissimilar experience of the beauty and the warmth of a human connectedness when you don't have sexuality clouding information technology and disruptive it. And for guys to experience male-to-male intimacy, then they tin can take that feel into their marriage and be able to meliorate exercise the intimacy without sexuality that then tin can lead to that commemoration of intimacy achieved that I talked about before.
Bennett: Right. I similar that.
When Men Cheat on Their Intimate Partners
Bennett: Some other issue that I hear a lot about is this either cheating or running from partner-to-partner, pornography, I mean a lot of sexual expression exterior of the relationship, shall we say? That can exist an accented deal-billow for and then many people and can break and then many hearts on so many levels. And, helping men to empathize their patterns.
I don't come across every bit many, I come across more of the women in therapy in those situations, who are trying to effigy out, they tin can't affect change on their person because there'south another dynamic at work there clearly. We all talk nigh ways to support women, but how tin women support men in those situations and help them to not exist shamed but to learn and abound about what their own patterns are.
Overflowing: Yeah. And we know women can have affairs, too.
Bennett: Certainly.
Flood: I retrieve Ronald Levant talks about men are socialized into nonrelational sexuality and sometimes we hear that as conquests or objectification of women, and misuse of pornography for sexual gratification. It becomes this instrumental approach to sexual activity versus it being this intimate human connectedness. And then, David Schnarch talks well-nigh intimate sexuality, intimate sexuality as existence the highest course of sex activity, the most evolved grade, and the near difficult. [Bennett: "That makes sense."]
And so, to have intimate sexuality, and for it to be erotic, and for it to be connected, and all the things that they experience in an thing and bringing this human connection with the sexuality is the most difficult, is the most vulnerable of them all, and yet potentially the about satisfying.
Bennett: Yeah, right. And that's, in that location's the hope, correct?
Flood: There's the promise.
Bennett: The carrot. [Flood: "Right."] Just I think like all humans, it seems, male and female person, just sitting with yourself, sitting with the feelings—not running to fill the void or take the drugs or take the alcohol, or…— is so difficult because that tin can exist a very painful, scary place for people.
Intimate Relationships Promote Mental Health
Bennett: I feel similar I'm a billboard for therapy, but it does aid to talk and to sit in a infinite where there is no judgment, but but wondering; wondering and sitting with it would be very helpful.
Flood: And I call back partnering in intimate relationships can provide that therapeutic value and that'southward, I think, the beauty and the magic of long-term connections where you tin can sit with someone, hopefully, and exist able to feel safe to reveal yourself and to have someone hold space for you and talk virtually fears, and dreams, and joys. And have that person mirror and validate and and then you get to change roles and you're holding infinite for that person.
Therapy is a one-fashion. Nosotros're there to do that with clients, but I think in an intimate relationship if information technology's healthy and well, that's why we gravitate towards those considering it'due south like something magical well-nigh being connected to another man being.
Bennett: Exactly. Well, information technology'south healing. Then, in that location's some therapy in all intimate relationships.
Flood: But, it's likewise scary every bit hell. [Bennett: "Right."] [Both: Laugh] Hence the tension.
Love and Intimacy are Risky Endeavors
Flood: We accept this drive to want to exist seen, to desire to be continued, and desire to take that warmth, but there's simply such fear of rejection, fear of abandonment, fear of existence engulfed. Like, if I get as well close to you, you're gonna consume me or overpower me. So guys, and again, women likewise, guys tin can have this fear of both being engulfed, and so they won't admit information technology, but the fearfulness of beingness abased.
Bennett: Right. So, that begs the question. I think the antidote to fear or anxiety is trust. So, what are some trust-building types of activities or words or dynamics can we focus on to help quell those fears? How practise you actually trust someone? Can nosotros ever say for sure that someone will non leave or injure y'all? [Flood: "No."] Nosotros're human beings, right?
Flood: I always tell guys if you don't want to get injure, and you don't want to get rejected, then don't always honey. Don't e'er love. Love is a risky endeavor. And so, information technology takes a lot of courage to love.
Stereotypes that Touch Men and Women
Flood: I think one of the things that I hear from guys is—remember the Paula Cole song? In the '90s, "Where Have All the Cowboys Gone?"
Bennett: Oh aye! I couldn't take named it.
Flood: Information technology's like, that's what they are frustrated or dislocated by because here's this pro-feminist woman with hair on her legs singing "where take all the cowboys gone?" A lot of guys feel similar they're put on a white horse and they have to still be the champion, and be this heroic guy and be the protector. But there's not room for them to be vulnerable, and that if they are vulnerable and show their fears and anxieties and insecurities, that that's going to make their partners feel dangerous. Because they're non being the man.
Bennett: Then, cue Sheryl Crow, right? "Are you potent enough to be my man?" Remember that song? That's the same kind of thing. I actually beloved the vocal, but when y'all choice it apart and remember near it. To your point, it takes courage to beloved. Information technology's an act of courage and there's adventure in everything worth doing. Nosotros all desire to exist strong plenty to be there for the other person, but that's quite a burden on a culture that already feels a lot of pressure and fear.
Flood: Brené Brown talks about some guy coming up to her after one of her presentations in a large group about vulnerability and it takes courage and he came upward there and he was all pissed off at her. And he said, "ma'am, they don't want me to come off my white horse and be vulnerable." And and then, she said that taught her something well-nigh masculine culture when that guy came up and talked to her about that.
I think guys sometimes get disruptive messages about their role [Bennett: "Agreed."] and who they're supposed to be and I think, nosotros're all socialized in this, historically, a patriarchal culture. And I recall even women sometimes can be—and you lot could probably speak to this—dislocated about what they want from the men they are in relationships with, right?
Sharing Roles In Intimate Relationships
Bennett: This is a big topic of conversation in my office a lot and it's around when we look at things in that binary kind of mode: I'm either stiff or I'grand weak. I'm good or I'grand bad. That rarely works. So, I try to frame information technology effectually the integration of all the parts of ourselves and existence a tapestry of many colors, many skills, many fears, many strengths, many weaknesses. We're all human being. I almost want to have gender out of it.
If we remember of things in black and white, it's going to be very difficult because you're going to get the guy talking to Brené about "no, no I can't get off this horse," considering this is what's expected of me. It'due south A or it'due south Z. And, I think that'due south going to be very frustrating. Considering the goal is to integrate the parts and some days you feel strong, some days you lot are strong, however we define strong, incidentally, but ya know, in other days you're not. Considering you're man!
Alluvion: I mean, you tin tell nosotros're both musicians considering I think of Tracey Chapman's song, "Get-go All Over," and she talks virtually starting all over with new language, new symbols, new constructs, and this idea that I call back we associate and so much gender roles with a certain energy. You're of the female person sexual activity, so therefore y'all're supposed to exist this role and you're supposed to be complementary, and you're supposed to be soft and nurturing. The sooner we tin can get over that and be man beings and realize…
Sometimes in my relationship with my wife, there are times where information technology feels similar I'm truly in the lead because it's my expertise and it's my strength and and so, she feels like she'due south following at times. And and then there are times where I'm following her because she'south in the lead because she'south got strengths in certain areas. There are times where she's listening to me and holding space with strength and there as a back up arrangement, and and so there's times where I'm doing that for her. And and then, there'southward then much fluidity [Bennett: "I was just going to utilise that discussion. The fluidity of the trip the light fantastic toe."] Yep. The fine art of dearest, which we've approached information technology I think, way besides mechanically with besides many rigid scripts.
Bennett: I concord. And I have to give yous kudos because conversations similar this are so important to have not just in therapy offices simply out there, sitting on your bar stool, or your kitchen table, listening to a podcast. Considering making these conversations more than attainable to people, therapy, equally we said, isn't the simply style to go at what'due south going on for you lot. Information technology'south about human being connection and conversing openly and daring to do that. [Overflowing: "Right."] Because everyone has a little fear of vulnerability. [Flood: "The human condition."] Exactly.
What Do Women Want?
Flood: You've been divorced for ten years and you've been in the dating field. And so, guys are listening to this podcast. "What do women want? What practice women look?" And "what would a adult female think if she knew I was in therapy? Would she think I was weak? That I'm broken?" Taking your psychotherapist hat off, simply beingness a woman out there in the dating field, what is your point of view about men that are seeking assistance or willing to become into emotion or that kind of thing?
Bennett: Well, that's a wide-open field of questions here! As a psychotherapist, I have a lot of people say to me, both in the dating realm and exterior of it, "Wow. I don't know how you do what you do. I could never do that." I could never mind to people gripe all day or whatever the words are. And I honestly say I don't view information technology that way. I say I view this as a very positive experience. People coming in to talk to essentially a stranger for the first time and open up themselves up to sort of say, "hey, I need some ideas hither, I demand some feedback, I gotta get out of my echo chamber." Share that. I see that every bit tremendous strength and I encounter it as inherently hopeful and mettlesome.
And so, I have zilch just respect for my clients. And that'south how I view anyone who'due south willing to open up and share what'due south existent for them. It's a struggle for anybody, women and men. When I meet someone willing to do information technology, willing to take chances, I admire the heck out of that. So, in respond to your question, I'm encouraged when I know someone is in therapy or even if they're not in therapy just they're simply willing to talk about their emotional life and explore things or to say, "this is truthful in my family" or "this is something I went through." And I'm like "oh, you also? Me also!" So, that's, to me information technology's a strength, information technology's not a weakness.
The Courage to Mind to and Share Emotions
Overflowing: And so, it's another fashion of looking at strength and courage is that practise you take the strength to hear my emotions and hold space, do you have the strength to share yours, do you lot have the backbone to allow me behind the drapery and see who you are. In helping guys maybe take what they see equally masculine free energy—(of)courage, forcefulness, and endurance— and exist able to frame it in an intimate context, this is what backbone and strength look like, that intimacy. [Bennett: "Exactly."] You can exercise this, don't be then, don't exist a fraidy-cat. [Both: Laugh] We don't shame them, but in that location'southward like jump in the water. "Information technology'due south besides common cold" or no, information technology's like, "I'll practice information technology, I'll jump in there, you big wuss." Leap into the puddle of love and spring into this place where you merely don't know how deep it is, you don't know quite the strokes to swim, but [Bennett: "You'll meet real courage there."] Yep.
Bennett: I call back it takes less courage to hibernate behind a mask, to isolate, to shut down. I'm non judging those things; those are just the human response to fright and we've got to help people through that. But man, you desire to encounter backbone (well, you can't sit in my office and sentinel, yous know, considering of HIPPA) merely some of the things that people feel. As you know, as a therapist, it's actually beautiful to scout actually and people change and grow.
Alluvion: Information technology'south a spiritual space, a sacred space.
Bennett: Absolutely.
Developing a New Understanding of Intimacy
Flood: And that's when I get guys that go into the therapy and they're further along and they're a part of these men's circles that we do here. They will talk nigh it every bit sacred space: I've never had a identify where I could be real and honest with other men. That is another course of courage; just showing up and doing that work.
Bennett: I volition sometimes shock people when I use the term intimacy in terms of describing the therapeutic relationship. This is a very intimate relationship. Let's clarify. Intimacy is most connecting honestly and from your middle and confronting your fears and exposing fears of abandonment and all those kinds of things. We treat that with cracking honor. This is an example of what it feels like—it's sort of a laboratory setting— of what it feels similar to exist in a trusting, caring, safety space. Hopefully, nosotros're doing something to assist, right? [Both: Laugh]
Flood: Right. People would love to accept that in an intimate partnership. What makes it so difficult is the therapist's job is to hold that space for you, right? Simply in a union, we're supposed to reciprocate and it'south a unlike gig.
Bennett: Oh! For sure. For sure. So, absolutely it's a one-way thing.
Therapists are Human being Beings, First
Bennett: I volition tell y'all that that does affect the dating life because not everyone wants to appointment a therapist.
Flood: I would imagine that you could be intimidating for some men. [Bennett: "Yeah."] [Laughs] In many dissimilar ways!
Bennett: I've sensed information technology. I've likewise been told, people make the jokes about "oh, can y'all see into my soul?" No, actually I tin't. I do non have x-ray vision.
Inundation: Tin yous show me your soul? Then I'll run across information technology.
Bennett: That'due south a great comeback actually! It's almost, for some, immediately threatening, once again whether it's spoken or not I can usually feel it. For others, they say "Awesome! That's great. Let'southward talk." I have to simply reassure, not just in dating circles, but with friends and family, information technology's like I promise y'all I'm not working right now. I volition not bill your Blue Cross for this conversation. We're just talking similar friends. That's a niggling catchy sometimes, those lines. As I'1000 sure you lot know.
Flood: Sure. Well, thanks for coming and talking almost this.
Bennett: Admittedly. Thank yous for inviting me. It's a great conversation.
Overflowing: We always attempt to put ourselves out of business organization but I do think that raising boys and girls differently to train them into intimacy and, especially for guys, getting them to see the more expansive view of what intimacy can be and that'll be a meliorate world when we do a improve job at that.
Bennett: I hold.
Overflowing: So, thanks for that, I expect frontwards to gigging with you someday presently.
On the Path to Intimacy and Self-Awareness
Taking the plunge to open yourself to intimacy isn't always easy. But it tin pb to living a more balanced and authentic life. The Men's Resource Center offers tools to assist yous on your way. Our men's support groups provide opportunities for back up, education, challenge, and growth through interaction with other men who face similar personal struggles. And, if it seems that addictions and abuse are interfering with your ability for intimacy with your partner or spouse, contact the states well-nigh our counseling for porn and sex addictions and domestic abuse.
In add-on to in-person counseling and therapy, the Men's Resource Center offers a total spectrum of online counseling services. For more than information about our counseling, coaching, and consultative services please visit the counseling services page on our website. Also, feel free to contact us through the website or call us at (616) 456-1178 if y'all accept questions nearly this segment, ideas for a topic, or would like to be a invitee on the Revealing Men podcast.
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Source: https://menscenter.org/podcast/a-conversation-about-mens-challenges-with-intimacy-and-sexuality/
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